Untethered...with Clementine Ford
Untethered...with Clementine Ford
DANA OMARI-HARRELL – Navigating Beauty Standards and Cultural Liberation
Dana Omari-Harrell is someone whose work I’ve admired for a long time, and I couldn’t wait to speak to her for this episode. We begin by discussing Dana’s work in the cosmetic space - interventions, beauty standards and honesty about procedures all get a look in! But the conversation moves swiftly into Dana’s position as a Palestinian American woman, and her choice to ‘come out’ publicly. What does it mean to fight for your people, and to have grown up in a culture that makes it clear you won’t be supported in doing so? Join me for this stark and galvanising discussion about courage, faith and resilience with the legendary Dana Omari-Harrell.
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Free Palestine.
Untethered is recorded on the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to the traditional custodians of this country and their elders, past and present. Remember wherever you are, know whose land you're on. Hello, my loves, and welcome once again to Untethered with me, your host, clementine Ford. Untethered is a weekly podcast exploring courage, choices and the catalyzing moments in a person's life that lead them to define themselves on their own terms. Whether you're desperate for some sage advice or looking to be inspired, untethered will nurture the hopes, dreams and goals you have for yourself and give you the toolbox to do so with confidence, while listening to some fucking amazing people. One of the things that I love so much about social media, in amidst all of the bad, is that it introduces you to people you otherwise would not necessarily have made connections with, and my guest this week is exactly that.
Speaker 1:Dana Omari is someone whose work I've admired for a long time, and I really couldn't wait to speak to her for this episode. We begin by discussing Dana's work in the cosmetic space interventions, beauty standards and also honesty about procedures and the work that Dana does on Instagram to try and bring some honesty to the cosmetic space. But as a Palestinian American woman, dana is also passionate about fighting for the liberation of her people, and, as someone who is staunchly and fervently pro-Palestinian liberation myself, I couldn't wait to have that discussion publicly with her. What does it mean to fight for your people and to have grown up in a culture like America or Australia that makes it clear that you won't be supported in doing so? This is a stark and galvanizing discussion about courage, faith and resilience all of the things that Untethered holds so dear. Please welcome the legendary Dana Omari. Dana Omari. Dana Omari Harrell. Welcome to Untethered.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1:I'm so excited to finally talk to you. We've been Instagram friends for a while now, and I think we've had plans to do something like this, but it just hasn't worked out until now. So this is the time that it's meant to be.
Speaker 2:I agree. I mean, I think it started out with a comment, maybe over a year ago, at least over a year ago At least. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I think that that's one of the things that Instagram is such a bin fire a lot of the time. But one of the things that I have really loved about it is that I've just gotten to meet and to know so many amazing people from all over the world who you know. I can't imagine any other circumstance where I would have come across the work of yourself and found like a simpatico with you, except for this one platform kind of throwing us together, and I really appreciate it. I appreciate you.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Yeah, there are a lot of things that we can say that are negative about social media, but it really has made the world smaller in the way that we have access to information and people that we've never had access to before, and I think that's beautiful.
Speaker 1:So, for the benefit of Australian listeners in particular, just tell me a little bit about yourself, the kind of the top five highlights of Dana Omari Harrell.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I started my page by accident. I have worked in med spas and plastic surgery offices since I was about 24, 25. So about 10 years now and I knew that a lot of people did not know much about plastic surgery and that celebrities were not telling the truth about these things and gatekeeping, so people had a lot of misinformation. So I started my Instagram page and it blew up. I didn't realize that. I kind of did it for myself. It was mainly me being snarky like, oh my God, of course she says that she's lined her lips and I know that it's lip filler, but everyone believes her, and then people caught on to it. So I guess that's the number one thing about me that people always want to know. Like, how I started my page.
Speaker 2:I talk about plastic surgery, pop culture, celebrities. I talk about myself, procedures. I do procedures that I wouldn't do. Like some of the plastic surgeons and med spas that I work with, I get to showcase a lot of the stuff that they do so that people can actually see what these procedures are, what they look like, what they cost, any questions they may have. Just to give that transparency, my background is in biochemistry. I have a master's in biochem but I started out actually in architecture. So I have a master's in biochem but I started out actually in architecture. So I think I have like the art perspective plus the science background and maybe should have become a plastic surgeon. I just don't like touching people. Um yeah, I don't know what else to say.
Speaker 1:No, I think that that's a really good place to start, because you know we'll expand more into um. You know I want to. I want to kind of drill down a little bit into the things that that you're passionate about and the things that bring you joy a little bit later on. But I suppose one of the things that first drew me to you was this kind of refreshing honesty about cosmetic procedures. You know, and I've I've experienced, experienced um criticism and that's fair. People can have their opinions, it's totally fine, and I know that it's a.
Speaker 1:It's a fraught topic, uh, particularly with aging, and you know the sort of idea that if you do anything at all to change or alter your appearance, you're colluding with the patriarchy, capitalism, and you know what that is actually all fucking true it is.
Speaker 1:But we also live in the world and, yeah, I don't want to sit here and say, well, my individual choice to do the things that I do, which is occasionally get botox and I've had lip filler done and, um, you know, skincare procedures, that's my choice and therefore it's feminist.
Speaker 1:Because I chose that, because I think that that's so reductive and asinine to kind of say that every choice that we make as women is automatically feminist, but at the same time, I feel like it's just a choice that doesn't have to be politically loaded At the same time, as it's not like advertising my deep feminism, because I chose to do this to my face, and it's all about choice At the same time. It can just be this thing that I did and yes, like we make choices every day to kind of move through the structures that we live under and and yes, some people have more privilege to be able to access those things, and it just kind of is. I know this is is so basic, but it is what it is, you know, and obviously you don't exist in a vacuum no, and obviously the industry, as you would know better than anyone working in it.
Speaker 1:It is very persuasive and it is um, you know it does. It does operate on making people feel particular ways about their faces and about their bodies, but I think that that's what you why your work is so enjoyable and so important is because you're like, if you're going to do it, just be honest about it. Don't pretend that it's anything other than it is.
Speaker 2:Exactly so. We don't exist in a vacuum. It's really. You can have a lot of these points and still also understand that it still might make you feel some type of way when someone looks at you or makes a comment, right Like we and I believe that I have actually really thick skin but there are some things that if someone said to me it would really hurt my feelings and it does come from the patriarchy and the way that we view women and that women have to, you know, be more. You know whether they look younger, more graceful or more beautiful, like that's like one of the things that we look for in women and I understand that. But also, sometimes it's nice that like to feel good about yourself and if that's something that does make you feel good about yourself, I think that's where their personal choice comes in.
Speaker 2:Some people get a lot of strength and power from maybe going gray and I've been seeing that everywhere where people are like I'm going to go gray and I'm not going to dye my hair and that's beautiful and that there's so much strength in that.
Speaker 2:And then there's also the people who they don't feel comfortable, and when you don't feel comfortable, when you feel insecure, it affects the way you move through the world in a lot of ways. So if maybe someone is a brilliant scientist but they feel like they can't maybe give a speech at some big event because they feel like everyone's looking at them and judging them, it's going to hinder some of the incredible things that they can bring into this world because they're too busy focused on. Is everyone looking at this part of me or do they think I'm too old because I went gray early or whatever it is? You know what I mean, and so, when it comes to getting anything done whatsoever, I think knowledge is power, and not just getting anything done. Not getting anything done. Sometimes, knowing what procedures are and what people do to achieve this look actually gives people the peace of mind to say, oh, I wouldn't want to do that. I'm now more okay with not having this look to me because I know what it entails and I don't want to do that to myself.
Speaker 1:Does that make sense yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that that. I think that breaking things down, like for one, for example, I, I mean I guess you can never say never, because these kinds of things do. Once you do one, you start like thinking it's very persuasive. You know, it's sort of I can see the dangerous aspect of like oh, I could just do a little tweak here and there. And it does make you feel like lately I've been looking at my face in the mirror and I'm just, yeah, I'm just like pulling because I'm, you know, starting to experience more laxity or whatever. And obviously I think that the the better thing for my mental health would be to try and come to a place where it's like you just accept that you're never going to have the collagen of a 23 year old again.
Speaker 1:And I love being the age that I am. But I do see that kind of like Ooh, just like tweak it here and there, like it is kind of a bit of an addictive sense in that way. So I think that you're right Like having more of the knowledge of like well, actually that would be too far, that would be a step too far. I wouldn't get cheek filler done. And my reason I've said this before publicly firstly because I think that it can be, um, once you do it, it's it's just kind of just adding to it, and I and I I don't personally like love the way that it always looks on people, but also I'm really afraid of the filler in the one like the minute percent chance of the filler going into my artery and going blind from it, because I know that that's happened and yeah, that is a risk.
Speaker 1:I appreciate having that knowledge so that I can kind of go. Well, it's just a little bit of lips for me and that's fine. That's where you want to stay. I do worry about I'm interested in your thoughts on this I I worry about and there's maybe some hypocrisy in this because I sort of feel like, well, I've had stuff done. But I worry about really young women starting down the path because, firstly, I think everyone's faces are beginning to look exactly the same, and then I wonder about the long-term. Like you've done some stuff on the buxel buckle I don't know how to say, it's the cheek fat the buckle fat removal.
Speaker 1:That has kind of been popular in the last year and it's where for anyone listening. If you don't know what that is, it's, it's the kind of hollowed out cheek. Look, you know that you'll. You might be seeing a lot of celebrities sporting right now.
Speaker 2:And the thing is actually the fat that people um, accidentally, if you've ever bitten the inside of your mouth and it hurts and then you have a sore spot there so the fat pads on the inside of your mouth. Right, okay, it's that cheek, that you could bite down on you can feel the pattern.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you could feel the pattern. Yeah, you cannot replace it, that's the thing. And that gets smaller with age. So with age, that's where we do get that definition right here, and it does make you look more sleek, but it also makes you look older. And if you look older at 20 or 30 years old and then it only continues to shrink by the time you're 50 or 60. And that's what you would have looked like at 50 or 60. Now you're looking 80 or 90, you know you're looking more gaunt and um, and there's nothing wrong with looking older or younger than your age too. It's just one of those things that I don't personally like. There are some people that it's. It's good for um, like if they're really bothered by having very, very, very. I call it chipmunk cheeks. If you you've always been told you have very chipmunk cheeks and they're just really full, that might be an option for you. If that's always bothered you but any one of us it's and you can't fix it, there's nothing you can do. Once you've taken it out, it's gone.
Speaker 1:I think as well. It's the kind of it just occurred to me thinking about. You know, I'm 43. And so I have a memory of pop cultural times that 23 year olds now just simply don't have, just by virtue of being 20 years older.
Speaker 1:And so I can kind of think back to. You know, but in a time pre-social media, the nineties, beverly Hills, 92 and 0, every woman on that show was still the pinnacle of like aspirational capitalist beauty in the 1990s and in by today's standards they would be destroyed, you know. They'd be told to do all these things differently and that's awful. Like it's terrible what we do to young women in particular. I think that that's. That's a constantly present problem. But it also means that I have a greater insight than a 23 year old does now about the changing whims of fashion.
Speaker 1:So I know that what what we loved 20 years ago is so different to now, and what we'll love in 20 years is different to what we love today, and so that's the kind of part of it, I think that I I feel this maternal concern for young women who, like you, might just be doing permanent things to your face now that you can't predict will how they'll look later on now that you can't predict will how they'll look later on, right, and if it's something that you could reverse, I agree I.
Speaker 2:so the way that I move about plastic surgery for myself, and when I did take on clients and would do consultations with them, is never to try to completely change your face. If there's something about your face or body that you want to tweak or enhance, like I would always say, is there something that you just wanted to tweak a little bit, or something that you really love that you wanted to enhance a little. So like, if you love your full lips and you want them just a little bit more full, or if you love your nose but there's just a little bump that you want to smooth a little, something like that, where it's still your face. Really honestly, you kind of want people to look at you. This is, this is my style.
Speaker 2:You look, you look really good, you look really refreshed, but I don't know what you did not. Oh, her nose used to look like that and now it looks like a barbie, like she has a completely different nose, like that's not the look that you want to do, because usually that is is fashion based, that's based on oh, I want Megan Fox's nose, or I want everyone has the high cheekbones and I want that right now instead of if you don't have high cheekbones, you're not going to suddenly get huge high cheekbones or it's going to look probably look weird on you.
Speaker 1:Does that make sense, like yeah, yeah, yeah, it does a little, just little.
Speaker 2:I like I did a bluff. I don't know if you saw the video I talked about Um. I was 14 when I realized what a bluff was, which is upper eyelid. Well, it can be upper or lower eyelid surgery. For me, upper eyelid surgery.
Speaker 2:I'm the only one in my family that doesn't have very defined eyes. I actually have my grandmother's eyes and, um, I just wanted the Arab eyes that have a little bit more definition in um, you know right here, and I always wanted that, didn't know what it was, and then I saw um. Oh my gosh, I'm forgetting her name right now. Anyway, an actress had had it done and that's what it. When I learned about a bless and I was like this is what I want. And I learned about that when I was 14, but I didn't get it until it was 32. Like, I waited a very long time. It was something like, oh yeah, that'd be really nice to do someday maybe. And then I did it a couple of years ago. I love it, but I didn't do too much. I still kept my eyes relatively hooded, but not as hooded as they were before, and I'm so happy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you raise a really interesting point because you're Palestinian and you have you know.
Speaker 1:I would love to talk to you about that shortly as well.
Speaker 1:You have been so incredibly vocal and staunch throughout the last 10 months as we watch a genocide unfold before us and and I know that that was, um you almost had like a coming out process there, because the, the, the racism that is expressed towards palestinian people in particular, the judgment I mean it was, it clearly is trauma that is on top of palestinian intergenerational trauma that you carry anyway.
Speaker 1:But when you say, you know, I really wanted to enhance the my arab eyes, I find that really interesting as well, because cosmetic tweaks or whatever can be used to erase well, yeah, I mean. But also there's something really amazing about the fact that you could use this thing to become more, more arab and more kind of like more arab looking and more like connected to your family. Um, yeah, particularly when we live in a world where, as was so clear and you're kind of coming out again that a lot of concealment is, is, or the need for concealment is felt deeply by a lot of people whose cultural backgrounds there there is an, uh, a knowledge of how dangerous it can be for you to be perceived that way.
Speaker 2:Right. I just don't think many people even know the difference. I mean I it's not like I hid the fact that I was Palestinian. I would mention it, like I would say I'm Arab and if people said from where? It's same cause I'm Palestinian and Syrian. My mom's side of the family is Syrian, dad's side is Palestinian, from the West Bank and I would say it. But a lot of people first of all don't even know the difference. There are so many people who still don't even think Palestine is a thing or that Palestinians are a thing. You won't believe how many people are like that's just Arab. That's like saying that everyone in South America is just South American and there's no difference between a Chilean, a Venezuelan and a Brazilian when they have very distinct cultures.
Speaker 1:Or.
Speaker 2:European Right. They're just European. Like a German and an Italian are the same, like they would. It would go to war over that. You know they have Right, they have. But um yeah, even now, especially with the conflict, you'll see so many like Palestine isn't even a thing, it never existedestinians are just arabs. And I'm like my 23 and me says otherwise but also what's just arab?
Speaker 1:like that's exactly like you said, like what is if they didn't exist? Like what is just arab, you know?
Speaker 2:well. Well, their argument is that. So, like palest me, when you look at my 23andMe and it shows like my haplogroup or whatever, my roots trace back at least 13,000 years to the West Bank 13,000 years.
Speaker 1:That's amazing.
Speaker 2:But like really 27,000 years in that general area, so in the Levantine area, so in the Levantine area. So what a lot of these arguments are. They're saying that there were the Jewish people, there were the Israelites, or whatever they want to call them, and then the Arabs came and kicked them out. Like when was it? Like 400 AD, when the Ottoman Empire took over? And I'm like, no, you don't understand. I am the original Israelites. I am before. There were Jewish people that believed in Judaism. There were people there, levantine people, who became Jewish and then Christian and then Muslim as waves of religion came through. But they seem to think that Palestinians were, they came from the Ottoman Empire and then just squatted and that the Jews were there thousands of years before that.
Speaker 1:And my 23andMe says I've been, my family has been there for at least 13,000 years prior to any religion yeah, as opposed to what you're saying, which is the abrahamic, the people exist and then the religion sprung up, yes, from within those yeah, yeah, not even just sprung up.
Speaker 2:Like as each religion, like, becomes popular. You know this happened everywhere, even in europe. You know. Like there were the pagans and then, like, each new wave of a different type of christianity caused people to change. It's not like new people overtook the people that were there. It's that the pagans were there and then those pagans became christian and then those christian became roman catholics, specifically, and then they became Church of English Christian. You know what I mean. Like they, they it's the same lineage of people who have moved through different religions as newer ones have come and become popular. You know.
Speaker 1:I find it so enraging I mean so much of if it is clearly enraging. But I live live in Australia, you live in America. Both of those places have been colonized and the indigenous people to both of these lands, much the same as what is happening in Palestine right now, have been, you know, under onslaught since colonization and that colonial violence continues today. And so it's. There's a galling hypocrisy listening to political leaders who are funding genocides, or talking heads who are, who are justifying them, saying, using that argument of like longevity, you know, it's like well, okay, but by that token, australia was colonized in 1788, by your own argument, and I'm not saying that, I even disagree with this. We should get the fuck out, you know, like you can't say, on the one hand, well, it was their land first, regardless of the historical accuracy of that, it was their land first thousands of years ago. So therefore, when you are sitting on colonized land and you're continuing to oppress the original inhabitants and custodians of that land, Right Now.
Speaker 2:I would argue it's even more insane because they're talking about 4,000 plus years ago, when, literally here in the U? S, it was 200 years ago that we took this land away. So I'm sorry, let's start working our way backwards. We'll start with the U? S, we'll make our way to Australia you know the Guinea is we'll. We'll do all of that and then at some point we'll reach back 4,000 years and we can do genetic testing and I will be in Palestine then. I'm just amazed that.
Speaker 1:No, I've. I haven't yet heard a journalist ask that question to someone who was standing there and just in using that as a justification for, um, what is just? Increasingly it's like you and I've spoken privately about this that it's like every day. You think how could it get worse than it is already?
Speaker 2:And then they're like well just wait.
Speaker 1:We've got something to show you about how bad it's going to be.
Speaker 2:What's crazy to me about this is that the Israelis like specifically the IOF and their government in particular are posting videos and saying things like point blank and the US is like they don't need that. No, no, no. They're like yeah, like it should be, like they have the whole argument about whether they should be able to rate Palestinians. They're having this argument in the Nesset. There's a guy in the Nesset that's literally saying, yeah, they can do whatever they want to these terrorists.
Speaker 1:And then we'll give you. We've got a video that we'll share with you. You can even see it Like we saw that video yeah, they're, yeah, they, they share this information.
Speaker 2:And the US is like oh no, I don't think they mean that, not, you know, I'm I cannot speak on that because I I think that was taken out of context and I'm like are you fucking kidding me? They're literally admitting to it. There's no context. That is being misunderstood, saying, yeah, we did that. And the U? S is like did they?
Speaker 1:It's. It must be so dis destabilizing for you as a Palestinian American to be, you know, experiencing that gaslighting. I think that we overuse terms like gaslighting, but this is exactly what's going on, and especially now, in the lead up to the the federal election in November, and I'd love to know your thoughts on um, this very kind of like liberal, like small l liberal just just get the Democrats in power and then we can push them for change. I mean, I've been watching it. I'm like you realize they're in the government now, like they're in power now, so and they've overseen this genocide and funded it and justified it and yes, of course Trump would be worse Like that's a no brainer, but they are doing it now. So what is your reasoning, except that you don't actually want to do anything to change or push them for change. You just want everyone to shut up about it.
Speaker 2:Literally so. It's crazy to me because right now, every time someone says something and listen, I want to like preface this I'm not against voting for Kamala. If you're going to vote for her, great, whatever, I plan to vote for Jill Stein unless something crazy happens. And right now, they end this genocide. Now they make the promises. They end you know, they sanction Israel, they stop sending. You know, if they do all of those things now, which they have the power to do Biden and Kamala Harris have the power to do right now as president and vice president, then yes, I will probably vote for. Kamala Harris have the power to do right now as president and vice president, then yes, I will probably vote for Kamala, because Trump, as the president, is. That's just crazy. But right now she's playing in my face.
Speaker 2:She hasn't, to this day, not even once said the word Palestinian. Like just just can't even name us. That insane to me, and it's on purpose, because then it humanizes us, right. Instead she says then you exist, people of gaza. Yeah, then we exist, the people of gaza and people.
Speaker 2:It's gone insane to where people will argue with me like why is it israel's responsibility for the people of gaza? And I, like you're acting like. This is a separate country. It is an apartheid state. Gaza is completely controlled by Israel, to the point that it's an open air prison. West Bank is completely controlled by Israel and they're like there's no Israelis in Gaza. I'm like there's no Israeli citizens living in Gaza Doesn't mean that Gaza is not controlled by Israel and it is a part of the state of Israel. And people don't get that because you have people like Kamala who say the people of Gaza, the situation in Gaza, it sounds like it's a different country, unrelated to Israel, that is at war with another country and that you know what I mean. And she can't even just say Palestinian. She can't say genocide Like she hasn't said that one time but she can't even say the word Palestine or Palestinian. And that alone tells me that she's a piece of shit and that she doesn't plan to do anything.
Speaker 1:I can't even name the people.
Speaker 1:It's well and it's deliberate, because if you can successfully erase the humanity of a population, then you can do anything you want to them and right I I feel you know it's so frustrating for me when there's so many arguments that you see really disingenuous, anti-humanity, anti-human rights people use in order to justify and manufacture consent for not just genocide but for colonial violence and power.
Speaker 1:And one of the ones that I just find so eye-rolling is the sneering at pro-Palestinian supporters that you probably didn't even know where Palestine was prior to. I mean, that's if they named Palestine, but you probably didn't know anything about this prior to October 7th, or you've just jumped on board and it's like well, firstly, that's not true for a lot of people. Actually, I found an old Facebook post of mine from 10 years. I found an old Facebook post of mine from 10 years. It popped up in my memories, which was back in 2014, when you know the people of Gaza, when Palestinians in Gaza were under onslaught again and there was international and we didn't have quite the same, you know, ability to see in real time what's happening. But people knew. But even if people found, out in fucking october.
Speaker 2:So what like do we do?
Speaker 1:we say well, you, I mean it's just such an illogical way in you know you, wow, we've successfully concealed the incredible colonial violence that we've been, that israel has been exerting against palestine for 76 years and you've only just found out about it. Therefore, you just haven't known about it long enough so you can't have an opinion about it. Like it's illogical. So that's one of the things that I find just like it's so deliberately dumbing down the population.
Speaker 1:But also when people say things like we gave gaza back, like, firstly, not yours to give, secondly, there's a fucking border wall around it of barbed wire, and drones fly over gaza daily and people cannot come in and out. Like what do you call that? Like we gave it back what did you.
Speaker 2:You gave them a prison to live in and out.
Speaker 1:Like what do you call that? Like, we gave it back. What did you? You gave them a prison to live in and then you bomb it every so often.
Speaker 2:Literally, they can't like everything that goes in and out. Any important export goes through Israel. They have to approve it. They collect taxes. They give a certain amount of taxes to Hamas that they installed or to the Palestinian authority, if it's the West Bank, for them to take care of that. So whenever people are like they voted in Hamas, I'm like Hamas is like the municipal government. So you have Israel, that's the federal government, and then you have the municipal government, so they take care of schooling, trash pickup, the little things that you need for day-to-day life. That's what Hamas took care of. Same with Palestinian Authority and the West Bank. Now Hamas is also like a movement, a military wing, whatever, but that's because they're rising up. It's a resistance now, but it started as governing the little area of Gaza under the umbrella of Israel.
Speaker 2:So nothing goes in and out. That includes people, building permits and West bank you. You can't even update your home to keep it like within code without asking for permission from Israel. Sometimes they grant permission. Sometimes you have to know someone or sometimes you have to bribe the right people. It's granted. You can update your house If you don't get permission, and a lot of times they won't or won't let them add a new room or build on their own land. Then they come and say, hey, your house is not up to code, so we can demolish it. So that's how the demolishes are happening, when people are like, how can they just come and demolish a house in the West bank Because they haven't been allowed to update their homes, they've been denied permits? And then they'll go oh, hey, it's not up to code, it's 20 years past code, so we have to demolish your house and you know you have nowhere to live.
Speaker 1:That's like psychological warfare?
Speaker 2:yeah, and it's technically legal because technically their house isn't up to code. But what they don't tell you is that person has applied to upgrade their home and they have been denied it. And then you have an american settler from brooklyn who now takes over the house and is allowed to build or update it or do whatever they want. You know, physically removing people Sometimes. My grandmother's house has bullet holes where settlers came and just shot up her house, stole things and moved on. Almost every house has a trap door where they hide the women, like it's.
Speaker 2:I'm laughing because it's hide the women. I'm laughing because it's something that I grew up with, going home and even seeing it and saying it out loud, which I've never had to say out loud until October 7th, is just this is insane, that it's happening, rationing food, standing in line in West Bank and in Gaza obviously in Gaza. But when I say it out loud I'm like how do people not see that this is literally the Holocaust again? Like literally, if you have to build a trap door to hide from settlers and IOF soldiers in case they come to your house just to terrorize you for the day, isn't that what happened in the Holocaust? Everyone hid everyone in the attic or in a trap door, like isn't that how Anne Frank was hidden? You know? Like how do people not see this? It's just, it's mind blowing.
Speaker 1:It's so easy for people to pretend that they would do things differently when it's like when you know, in Australia with refugees because refugees are people in desperate situations that will do anything to protect themselves and their families when people say things like there's a queue, they're bloody queue jumpers. So in australia people talk about queue jumpers. It's like what are you talking about? There's not a queue when it comes to not wanting your family to die and any single one of you, if you were under immediate threat, if your family was under immediate threat, you would do anything. You could anything. You could, even if it was quote, unquote, illegal, anything you could to get them out exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:There's this expectation that, like for thee, not for me, you know the rules for thee, not for me and it's the same with the, with the election coming up as well.
Speaker 1:It's it's the same in that people expect, for example, you in particular, a palestinian american, but also people who are not palestinian but sympathetic to the palestinian cause and actively engaged in the palestinian. Well, don't you know that if you don't vote for the Democrats in November, we're going to get Trump and Trump's going to destroy America. It's like, yeah, trump is crazy, trump is like a nightmare. There's no question about that. That the kind of America that Trump wants to deliver. Firstly, like there are definitely more powerful people than him who are pulling the strings and he doesn't realise it.
Speaker 1:But yes, that's awful, it's terrible, but you're asking someone to prioritise your wellbeing and you perceive now suddenly the threat at the castle gates and you're asking this person, who's been out trying to put the fire out for months and also trying to defend and protect their family. You're saying why don't you care about me? Can't you see that they're on the horizon coming to get us.
Speaker 2:It's like I cannot wait to say what I have to say about this, because I had this argument today. So, first of all, to bring it back to kind of what you had said earlier about if we just nominate the Democrats or get the Democrats in again, it's all going to be fine. First of all, that's what the Democrats have been. That's been their platform, honestly, since George W Bush at least. So my first president I could vote for was Obama in 2008. That's when I was 18. I remember George W Bush and the Afghani and Iraqi wars and all that, and I'm sure it goes all the way back truly to Reagan. At least Reagan is like the point of all evil in my mind. But every election, democrats run on. At least we're not that guy, at least we're not that Republican. That's always their platform. And one thing that I can say about the Republicans is they say we're going to ban abortion. They ban abortion. We're going to take away money from welfare. They take away money from welfare. They run on a platform and then they do it. We run on the platform. That's like if you vote for them, you're going to lose your rights, but if you vote for us. We're not going to do anything more for your rights. We're just going to keep it exactly where it is and we're not going to do anything to protect it. We're not going to codify anything so that the next election the fear is oh, if they get it, they're going to take away these rights. Well then, why the fuck didn't you codify our rights when you have the chance? Why didn't you do that? And every election it's like that.
Speaker 2:So, to fast forward to this election, and people are saying you know it's going to be worse under Trump. He it's going to destroy everyone and everything he wants to put in. Basically, I don't even know, like destroyed democracy and we'll never have a vote again. And I said, good, maybe then when you have lost all your fucking rights, the the black and brown and muslim and jewish people that are not pro-israeli we've all been losing our rights. Women, we've all been losing our rights. We've all been not being able to have health care, not being able to afford houses, not being able to like every year that I'm alive, I have less. As a brown woman, you know, and all of us, if we're not super rich and white and christian, we're not getting ahead. Anyway, maybe if all of you guys also lose your rights, then there will be no choice but for us to have a revolution.
Speaker 2:Because at this point, what it sounds like is you're content with black people scared of cops and possibly shot at any time. They get pulled over, hispanic, you know, possibly separated from their families, children putting cages at the border, um, everything with, like, arabs there was I mean, they're so still sanctioned and everything against syria and, like you know, a lot of islamophobia, women losing their rights. Like, you're cool with all that happening to us as long as you get the status quo. So maybe you don't deserve the status quo. Like, maybe if I'm in hell, you deserve to be in hell with me. So I'm ranting. So, essentially, to sum that, up for everyone listening.
Speaker 2:I'm I'm tired of voting so that you stay fine and everyone else is burning. So maybe we should all burn together under Trump and rise up, because if you're not willing to fight for us right now, you're not going to fight for us after November, when Kamala is president, and so I don't give a fuck what you want anymore, because I've been doing this since at least 2008, and it has only gotten worse with three presidents, three Democratic presidents. Since then, I've only been under one republican president since I was able to vote, since I was 18. One republican president. Yeah, isn't that crazy. Obama for two terms, trump, biden that's 16 years, right there, I think that I don't care yeah, I think that.
Speaker 1:I think that that's completely reasonable and rational and there is so much power in saying well, why don't you? You should maybe just be in hell with me, with us, with whoever you know. I feel like when I watch that being about me.
Speaker 2:I'm tired of being blamed. Kamala blamed us last night, but please finish your.
Speaker 1:Oh, no, no, I think that, yeah, and obviously I don't have a stake in voting because I'm not American, I can't vote. But and I'm not going to be immediately impacted by an American government, but as a citizen of the world, and Australia is just so like a grotesquely up America's ass in everything Um, obviously it has like flow on effect here. Um, right, I feel that rage that you have because it's just so obvious when you kind of become aware of it. It's so obvious that it's just about maintaining the ruling class right Like I see Connie Britton, you know, on that white women for Kamala Harris, phone call Zoom organized by Glennon Doyle, and it's embarrassing, it's embarrassing to look at all of these women who you know.
Speaker 1:The one thing that I could kind of like I watched little clips of it here and there people sharing stuff and some great commentary about sort of along the lines exactly what you're saying, which is like right now you've turned up. But firstly, I don't anticipate that the vast majority of people on that call, and certainly not Connie Britton, who I I I'm a fan of Connie Britton's acting, you know, it's not like a personal attack against her, but she's part of the fucking ruling class you know, she's gonna be fine under a Trump presidency.
Speaker 1:She's not gonna like it. It's gonna provide a lot of like great dinner party conversation, I'm sure, but she's gonna be, and so this idea that if I were in your position, and particularly if I were in your position as a Palestinian woman or even just you know sort of I'll use the generic term no, even just a white woman in Texas.
Speaker 2:If you lived here in Texas and you couldn't have an abortion even if your life was at stake, a regular even if you had, I mean, unless you were super rich and you could fly away and stay away for a couple of weeks, and not just that. And they haven't criminalized it yet where, even if you're able to do that, you come back, you're arrested. Sorry for interrupting, but, like you, you would not do well here either as a white woman. And so it's not even that. It is like Connie Britton, being white, wealthy, famous. Just she is in that ruling class where it will not affect her but it would affect you. It's not. It's not even about Palestinian or Brown, you know.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that you're right, but I was using the specific experience of if I were Palestinian or if I were just broadly Arab, because, because of that petulant kind of chastising, just you think that Trump's going to be any better for Palestine? We need to just get Kamala Harris elected and then we can push her for change. And the reason I made I was specific about that example is because I do not anticipate at all and I would bet money that women like Connie Britton and half of, if not the majority of, women on that call they have no plans to wake up on November 6th and start pushing for change. Even if Trump wins, they don't really plan to get up and start pushing for change.
Speaker 1:And I know that because I am a white woman and I know how lazy we are and I know how superficial our goals are and I know how short our attention span is and I also know how much we expect because we are part of like white colonial, like the historical legacy of white colonial violence is that we expect that work to be done for us by brown people, black people, by anyone who we have historically maintained and retained the feeling that they work for us. And I and I I don't. I believe that I'm actively working against that in myself, but I know that the I know that that's what whiteness does you know? I know that is to be true of white people. Um, so I just feel so frustrated looking at that call and then seeing all these women being like oh my God, I've just we're saving the world, guys.
Speaker 1:Like I think Glennon Doyle actually said American women are saving the world, and I just watched that and I was like you guys are embarrassing, like how can you, particularly someone like Glennon Doyle who I, to be honest, I'm completely neutral about, about I've never really listened to her podcast, it's not for me but who has presented herself as someone who is willing to learn and who has been willing to engage to what extent she's done that, I don't know. As I said, I don't to the podcast, but for her to then turn around and just reveal exactly what, like who we are we're saving the world guys. It's like, oh my God, you kind of really haven't learned anything, have you in all of these years of you doing hard things.
Speaker 2:They're doing their best. Okay, like they're going to vote for a black woman.
Speaker 1:Okay, like that gives them the nobel peace prize a shot.
Speaker 2:Okay, like then, never, ever has a black woman been able to run for president. We did. They're amazing. We'll give us that. Yeah, we did that.
Speaker 1:The white ladies did that.
Speaker 2:It's us, we did it, we did it guys it wasn't because we had to bully biden into stepping down.
Speaker 2:We were about to have a freaking dead person. I'm not sure he's alive right now. Like, yeah, I have not seen him since it's. Yeah, I anyway I don't really believe he's dead, I'm joking. But we, we had to bully him into stepping down and that's how we got this historic nominee.
Speaker 2:And I'm not taking that away from kamala. But like, let's be for real, we did not nominate kamala. So please, like, we need to stop acting like we did something or that we chose her and that's both sides. They need to stop acting like we, like the people chose kamala because, honestly, her track record I'm I'm happy that she's a woman, I'm happy that she's black. That gives perspective that other other presidents have not had in the past. But her track record reads more white man than it does a woman of color who has always been concerned with people, the populations. Let's say that. But let's be fucking for real. We didn't choose Kamala, we didn't nominate her. She got it because we bullied our sitting president into not running again. And so for white women everywhere to be like we did that, we put a black woman as a nominee. No, we didn't.
Speaker 2:We didn't do anything as a nominee.
Speaker 1:No, we didn't. We didn't do anything and I think it goes back to what you said just before, that it's really just it's it's. It is true that women obviously are held to a higher standard than men, and black women in particular are held to the highest standard of all. Obviously, like I don't want to take that away or diminish that you know, kamala harris is undoubtedly being subjected to a level of racism and misogyny that is not applied anywhere else, and that she will have to be 10 times better than anyone else of course.
Speaker 2:Obviously look at trump, yeah, but at the same time, you're right times, my time is better than him. Neither one Like I do want to say she did that. She's like. I'm happy that she's a black woman copy. But her track record, the way she votes, she's actually very conservative. A lot of her policies have been. I mean, look, she can't even say Palestine, she can't even stand for that. You know what I mean? She's not for me, but I will vote for her. Yeah, if changes, if she, if she recognizes your humanity. Just some inches, yeah. And this thing is.
Speaker 1:It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be that hard. You know, like it's an historic candidate who enforces the status quo. It's still just enforcing the status quo and it shouldn't be that hard. This is what I, this is also what I'm kind of feel like, and I'm sure you're the same. Just, you're watching it and you're like am I crazy? Am I going crazy? Because you're seeing people say stop talking about Palestine, stop being single issue voters. It's like it's not a single issue, it's genocide pretty big fucking issue. Um, but also this idea that like somehow, if you talk about it to the candidate to the nominee, if you say we are the voters and you need us and these are our demands, and it's not like we want you to give us all a house, even though that you know would actually be great.
Speaker 2:To be honest, we want you to stop slaughtering.
Speaker 1:Even if you can't extend yourself to agree to not slaughter adult men and women, can you just agree to stop slaughtering babies and children?
Speaker 1:the fact that they can't even say that, and the fact that people who are just asking for an end to a genocide are having fingers wagged and their faces saying stop talking about it. Don't you know what will happen if Trump wins? It's like you guys are the problem. You guys are the problem because you don't, you're not interested in this, and the protesters and the people who are speaking up for palestinian human rights are an inconvenience to them, because they are reminding them not only that everything that they're fucking supporting is built on a house of sand, or built on a kind of foundation of sand, but also it's like holding up a mirror to them. These are your values. This is actually what you truly care about, and it's yourself. It's not. You've never, at one point ever, cared about these dead babies, so don't pretend now, but somehow you've just got to get November 5th set, set in stone, and then we can do the work of ending the genocide, as if somehow the people conducting the genocide are not currently in power, asking for you to re-elect them 100%.
Speaker 2:And it's killing me that people don't see the connection with genocide, with every issue that we have as Americans right now. Just the idea that there are some people who deserve to live more than others and some people who deserve to have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness more than others means that that's applied here too, and the fact that they don't see that is driving me crazy. A country that can look at what's happening in Palestine and then continue to support it financially, politically, in every way possible. They're also doing the same thing here. That's why we have cop cities that are springing up. That's why they are taking away our rights as women to have an abortion, even when we're dying, or rape or whatever, because they don't think that we all deserve life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Speaker 2:There is a ranking system and there are certain people who deserve it more than others, and that is made evident by the fact that they can tolerate a genocide If they truly believed all people were equal and all people deserve to live and live well. I'm not even talking about like everyone and I mean I do believe everyone deserves a house. We have too much space and money for not everyone to have a house. But I'm not saying like everyone is rich and everyone blah, blah, blah. I'm saying like just that they're not worried about are they going to eat? Are they going to be murdered? Are they safe? That's basic human rights, and a genocide proves that we don't believe that everyone deserves basic human rights. So why don't you think that that would not bleed into here, made evident by the policies that we don't have healthcare as Americans, we don't have paid maternity or paternity leave, we don't have guaranteed PTO, we don't have abortion rights. We have more rights taken away. A cop can kill you with impunity.
Speaker 1:Clearly they do not believe that everyone's free right.
Speaker 2:So I don't see how people don't see that's connected. I don't know, am I crazy? Like it clearly shows that we do not believe that everyone deserves to live and live well.
Speaker 1:I mean, obviously I could talk with you about this for hours and hours, but we're coming up to the end of your generously given time, so I'd love to finish on. Let's finish on a positive note but I'd love to.
Speaker 1:No, I love when you yell at me. Actually it's, I'd love to yelling at you. No, I love when you yell at me. Actually it's, it's wonderful, I love yelling with you.
Speaker 1:But I believe it's really important in these times not only to nurture and nourish ourselves and to and to experience pleasure and joy and a reminder of what it is that is being fought for, which is humanity, which is lightness, it's levity, it's. You know, you want people to be able to walk along the river bank and or go to the beach and just have some enjoyment as humans, and I also want to. You know, for me, the people I've encountered in the pro-Palestinian movement, and Palestinian people in particular, have been so galvanizing to my experience as a human, because in amongst the rage and it's justifiable rage, it's righteous rage there is so much love for community and love for humanity and love for what it means to be alive. And I would love to finish by asking you what are the things that make living meaningful for you? What are the things that make you feel joy, that that connect you back to community and connect you back to to the ground, like to the experience of being here?
Speaker 2:I have so many. Um, I'll start with one of the things that I love about my Instagram page is I feel, like it's, in general, built a really beautiful like it's, in general, built a really beautiful loving community. People want to learn, they want to connect, they want to. I don't know, I just get amazing messages all the time like hey, like this made me feel better, I always wanted this done, and then you showing me that, but you know, I don't, I don't know, I don't know. I don't want to get into, I guess, specifics, but I get so many beautiful and moving DMs that just make me happy. And then, um, people who are really involved in like my life, like my dog it was her third birthday today and just the outpouring. I know I posted about it, but it's just crazy. The people who are like I saw when you got her two years ago she has, she's definitely grown, and I don't know. So there's that. And then there are things I don't know. It's really the small moments, like we need to see a very spectacular sunrise and it's like the perfect temperature and you have like the perfect cup of coffee and you're like this is what life was meant to be.
Speaker 2:I love working. I'm a workaholic, but like we weren't meant to work, we were meant to, I think, to socialize and communicate and experience everything, and it can be things like that. I love art. I started out in architecture. I personally can draw and paint and stuff, but I love I live in the museum district. Sometimes I'll just go and just someone created that.
Speaker 2:That's crazy to me, because the thing that separates them from me is I can draw, I can paint, I can create things, but I can't create them from my own mind, like I can see something and I can redo it, but I don't. I can't come up with this like masterpiece painting that these other people just somehow come up with. Same with reading. I'm an avid reader. I read at least one book a week. I read every morning and every night before bed and the stories I learned so much. That has always been a huge source of my education, my whole life. So I guess the things that make life worth living are other people, just connection the things they create, the things you learn the moments with them, and that includes my dogs. They are people.
Speaker 1:I love that and I think that's so true. You know the I think a lot and I have been thinking a lot lately about the difference between work and production. And I don't mean production like on the factory line, I don't mean production in an industrial sense. I mean I don't think that people were meant to work in that they go to the office every day or they go and like, do this every day.
Speaker 2:But I do think that they don't go right. They don't have a place to live if they don't go yeah.
Speaker 1:I think we were meant to live in communities and we were meant to produce together, like we were meant to plant gardens and produce enough food so that everyone can eat, and we were meant to produce enough whimsy and laughter so everyone can enjoy. And we were meant to produce enough space so that people could live, whether or not all together, or just I think we were meant to like walk along the river and just enjoy watching the birds, kind of like eat bugs on the surface of the water, or you know like sit there and just kind of muse and ponder and just enjoy and indulge, like. I think that those, for me, are the things that you know. You talk about a sunset and the perfect cup of coffee, and it's those little moments that make up a life, isn't it? It's the, it's the if we can sit there in those moments and we can really tune in and we can go just for now, just for this moment. I'm just going to be here with the sun and I've seen it rise and set every day of my life and I've seen beautiful sunsets before, but every single beautiful sunset is a complete marvel.
Speaker 1:I often think to like soothe anxiety, when you kind of feel overwhelmed by life or whatever. I find a lot of comfort in thinking that for billions of years we've had the oceans right and for billions of years the oceans, the tides have come in, they've gone out and in all that time, like, you, can sit on a beach and you can watch the waves come in and you can feel absolute peace In all that massive expanse of time in which humans are just a tiny little blip. No two waves have ever been the same, so full of wonder, and we do so much as humans to destroy it. And we need to get back to this feeling of like. What is it that is worthwhile? And it's just the perfect cup of coffee, a sunset and a book. At the end of the day, you know, that's actually the meat of life.
Speaker 2:Well, it's also like to talk about the how big the world is also. Just think about the universe and how many stars there are, and stars that are dying and stars that are being created and possibly other planets like it, and I'm not saying that the problems that we have aren't obviously very difficult and hard. I'm not saying that. But then, when you like, step outside of that and it's like there's so much more to this entire universe that people killing over a piece of land is so fucking stupid.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like it's like so dumb there's so much more to life. If we could all just channel our energy into that instead of, like specifically being so rich that you could have a million dollars a day and never spend all of it like Jeff Bezos, at that point, what's the point of your wealth? You could be channeling all this stuff into more exploration and discovery and furthering humanity in general and furthering the world, the earth, protecting it. There's so much you could do and instead you want to hoard wealth or you want to start a war. That's what you wanted to do. Okay, sounds stupid sounds.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like Jeff Bezos has so much money and he could have literally solved world hunger, but he chose to fly to space in a giant dick, you know, and he still could, and he could still after that yeah to your world hunger, but like that's no fun.
Speaker 2:Obviously he wants a second rat on the dick.
Speaker 1:Dana, you are wonderful, I love you, I love your page. It's been such a pleasure to talk to you today and, um, you know, on a serious note we're. I know that the movement will be successful. I see a free Palestine in the future. I know you do too, and I think that the world is coming together in its own ways and against the backdrop of like horrendous violence and genocide. It has brought so many people together and I hope you feel that support.
Speaker 2:I do. As a Palestinian, I've never had hope like this before. I just swept it under the rug because it didn't seem feasible. And now, for the first time, it feels like everyone is seeing what we have been saying and what we have been trying to say for so many years. But before we end, I really wanted to say that I have always loved talking to you, but I've also learned so much from you, even things that I knew. I know we didn't have time to get into this, but it wasn't manifest, it was prosperity theory.
Speaker 2:Prosperity theory. I learned about prosperity theory, specifically in the Christian sense of people who are more righteous, get more blessed by God. I learned about that, knew about it and I never thought to apply it to aesthetics and that was one of the things. There's so many things that I've learned from you and things that I agree with, like your stance on marriage, for example. I agree, as a married woman, I agree. I like completely agree. Maybe that's what we should have started off with. Maybe to be like, hey, it's like patriarchy and um, you know aesthetics and like did you get plastic surgery because of the patriarchy? Did I get married because of the patriarchy? Like, I agree with you, yet I still got married.
Speaker 1:I mean we all make choices. You know, like that the thing I, I can sit there and I have a very like after years of thinking about myself, I feel like I have a very sound argument against marriage. But at the same time, like I'll go to a wedding, I'll go to a wedding you know I love a wedding and I I can understand and I can see all the patriarchal arguments about cosmetics. Yeah, but I love a bit of Botox, love a bit of lip filler.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I will say that I, I can definitely say that there are things that I I knew back in my mind. I knew, or I knew in a different sense, and you definitely connected the dots for me or made me think of it in a different way than I'd ever done before, and that's why I just absolutely enjoy everything that you do. I like, consume, like every piece of content you have.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you, that that really means a lot to me and, um, yeah, I really appreciate you and our and our friendship too, and, um, I hope we get to do this again. I would love that. Untethered is hosted and produced by me, clementine Ford, with audio production and sound design by the incredible folks at Cardigan Creative. If you love what you've been listening to, don't forget to subscribe and you'll get new episodes dropped straight into your podcast listening box each week. Please consider rating and reviewing the show as well. It really helps to get podcasts out there so that more people can listen. You can also find me, clementine, on Substack and Instagram, with all of the details listed in the show notes. Until next time, stay untethered.